Something most “experts” will tell you is death to any blog.

I stopped posting. For 2 ½ weeks. Not a peep.

Without explanation. Without notice. I just plain vanished.

Why?

A few reasons…

I’m often asked how many times a day or week a blogger should post to maximize growth, influence and impact. I have friends who post two or three times a month and experience extraordinary growth and sharing.

For some time, I’ve posted anywhere from two to seven times a week. And I wanted to see what would happen if I radically cut back on my posting frequency.

I wanted to see:

• What would happen to my traffic
• What would happen to my subscription rate
• Whether anyone would notice, and if they did…
• Whether anyone would care

So, here’s what happened. Over 2 ½ postless, totally AWOL weeks…

My traffic - Traffic to the blog dropped about 25%, but my deep history of links, SEO and ongoing social discovery kept a nice flow of organic traffic rolling in. This is the benefit of having a substantial number of evergreen posts built up over a period of years, especially authoritative ones with strong search-rankings.

My subscription rate and total new subscribers/day – Net new subscribers/day stayed steady. You read that right. There was a very slight decrease in gross new subscribers, but also a decrease in unsubscribes, likely because the same emails that deliver posts also serve as prompts to unsubscribe. So, no new emails, meant no new prompts to split. At the same time, new organic visitors continued to subscribe, so my inflow of subscribers kept on keeping on, while my unsubscribes dropped to zero.

Did anyone notice? This is harder to measure. Plenty of people may have noticed, but not said anything. Over this window, while people can message me through email, twitter, Facebook, google+ and comments on the blog, only a single person reached out to me to say he noticed I hadn’t posted. Not sure whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing right now.

Did anyone care? That one person expressed concern for me, shared that he loved my work and that it was doing good things in the world and that my tribe really appreciated me and was here for me. His message was deeply heartening. What wasn’t as heartening was that his was the only message from a tribe of tens of thousands of regulars.

My big, fat take-aways…

If you’ve been in the tribe for a while, you’ve likely noticed a bit of an evolution in what I write about on the blog and beyond.

I’m shifting gears professionally. As I emerge from my book launch bubble, I’m beginning to focus intensely on where I’ve succeed and failed in 2011 and what I want to build in 2012 and beyond. While I’ve accomplished some great things this year, I know I’ve also dropped a lot of balls and not come close to what I’m capable of creating in the world.

As a writer, it’s becoming clear that posting one to five times a week is unsustainable. I can do it, but I can’t do it and also create content, experiences and value that inform, illuminate and impact on the level I aspire to. It’s simply a matter of personal bandwidth.

I don’t write to be prolific, I write to make a difference.

And I cannot do that on the level I know I’m capable of when I’m churning out content at concert pitch. I’d rather go narrow and deep a few times a month than go shallow and wide a few times a week. I’m not knocking anyone who chooses the latter, we all have our own internal barometers, aspirations and metrics. It’s just that on a personal fulfillment level, the latter isn’t working for me any more.

The fact that over three weeks there was a near total lack of response to my disappearance also tells me a lot. It was a bit of a wake-up call to me and a validation of my hunch that I need to re-think the perceived value of what I’m building here, how I’m building it and where I want it to go from this moment forward.

You will see some substantial changes over the next few months, all in the name of finding a more sustainable, sweeter spot between:

• My ability and desire to do what I’m here to do,
• My desire to provide a more clearly differentiated experience, and
• My deep Jones to better serve your needs and interests

I’ll create appetizers here and there, but my focus will be on main courses, served up hot two or three times a month. I may also introduce a new video Q&A segment as a way to more directly respond to the many questions that come to me.

Curious, what about you?

Did you notice I’d disappeared? Did it matter?

If you did the same, would it matter to your community?

Are you working in the sweet spot between your authentic genius zone and the deeper needs of your community?

How do you know?

And, last thing, for my first Q&A segment, what can I answer for you?

+++

The words were out of my mouth before I could stop them:

“When you dress properly and look clean, people treat you better. They’ll think you’re smart. And that you come from a good family with money. They’ll be nicer and pay attention and help you more. Don’t you want that?”

After I’d spoken, I fell silent and felt guilty. What an awful, biased, discriminating thing to say – and worse, I’d said it to my six-year-old daughter.

Some role model I was, right?

But I hadn’t been thinking when blurted that out. I’d been frustrated and irritated because I needed to take my daughter to the hospital, and she’d been (loudly) refusing to brush her long, curly hair.

I don’t blame her. She’d been sick, it was tangled, and it hurt.

Here’s the problem: No matter how much we wish the world to be a fair place that judges people for their inner worth and not their outer appearance… it just doesn’t work that way.

Sad, but true. Clean, well-dressed people are perceived to be more educated, skilled or experienced. And they get better treatment because of it. Disagree with me? Go stand next to a beggar and ask the first person to pass by for some help or a few dollars.

In business, things are much the same – and we know this. We dress well, have nice websites, and put our best foot forward for our clients. We realize (sometimes intuitively) that our appearance directly influences our reputation, our potential, and our chances of making the sale.

We want to look capable. We want to create a good impression. We want prospects to think, “This could be the guy we’re looking for.”

Let’s take things online, shall we?

Online, there aren’t any face-to-face interviews. It’s all websites and blogs and newsletters and emails. Sure, you have some Skype calls and videos thrown into the mix, but for the most part, people learn more about you and your business through written communication.

And how you present yourself in words means everything to your success.

It starts with design. People land on your website and in seconds, decide whether it looks appealing enough for them to stick around. If they like what they see, they start to read.

And they start making all sorts of judgements about you.

They decide whether you’re smart. Whether you’re sassy or friendly. Whether you’re professionally skilled or specialized in your field. Whether you’re experienced enough for what they need. And whether you’re nice.

They haven’t met you yet. They have no clue who you are. But they make decisions and assumptions about you and your business based on how you present yourself… in writing.

That means that what you write and the way you write it directly influences people’s perceptions – and in turn, how they treat you and whether they should buy from you based on those perceptions.

If they think your home copy sounds expert, they’ll assume you’re a good choice for their project. If your About page sounds personable, they’ll assume you’re a nice guy. If your Services page is clear and concise, they’ll assume you’re on the ball.

And if your sales copy speaks to them… they’ll trust you with their money.

They don’t even know who you are. Or whether you can do what you say you can do. Or whether your product is going to work or break.

But if you write compelling, engaging words… they’ll believe you’re everything your writing conveys.

The problem is that most business owners don’t know how to write in a way that reflects the image they want to present to readers. They might write well enough, sure, but does their writing create trust, build a bond and convey the right image to pull in sales?

Very often, no.

And if you’re writing your own business content, you’ll want to think about learning better techniques. Why? The answer is simple: If your copy is awkward, if your blog post is clunky, if your newsletter is boring… you’ve lost a sale. Probably several.

You’re leaving money on the table.

That’s not something you want to do, so here are 3 tips (and a bonus!) on how can improve your copy to instantly improve your business credibility – and of course, get better results.

Focus on “you”, not “I”

When businesspeople write about their company, what it does, and why it’s a good choice, it’s tough to write using a “you” focus. But the alternative is writing “we” all over the place. “We do this, we do that, we, we, we.” That gives readers the impression your business is arrogant and doesn’t care about them much. Go through your copy now. Rewrite every “we” so that it reads “you” instead – and see the difference yourself!

Cut the fluff

Most business people are long winded, especially when it comes to writing their own web copy. They think longer sentences sound more professional. But short, easy-to-read, easy-to-understand words create a better impression – yes, even if your visitors are high-level executives. Why use 20 words when 5 will do? Cut out all the fluffy words and trim your content down so that even a teenager could read it – your bottom line will thank you, and so will your readers.

Add some spunk

Some people think that “professional writing” means informative, bland and devoid of personality – but people (and customers) much prefer seeing a more human side, even in business. So go ahead and add personality to your web copy, with little phrases that make people smile or a bit of witty prose. Not too much, though: Personality is a seasoning best used with gentle moderation.

Cut back on the catchwords

Some people use so many catchwords and trendy phrases that it’s nearly impossible to figure out what they’re talking about. (Normstorming? Sounds cool, but what the…??) Trying to be too cool with your copy ends up losing you customers who think you’re just crazy. Be clear, never clever, and make sure you use simple phrases that site visitors understand at first glance – without having to think about it for 10 minutes.
Your online success directly hinges on your content and copy. So learn the techniques. Improve your writing skills. Put every chance on your side.

Because just like my daughter’s brushed hair and clean clothes got her better treatment, your polished words and well-written content bring you better sales and business results.

+++

Men with Pens’ famous writer James Chartrand recently launched Damn Fine Words, the game-changing writing course for business owners.

But the first few sentences of two of the pitches I got over the last few months were too good not to share with you and turn them into a mini-lesson of what never to do.

Both were unsolicited. Pitch one started.

Hi Jonathan,

It’s small business week and I sure you and everyone else at Awake At The Wheel are sick of getting pointless pitches but I think you might like this one.

Small businesses and entrepreneurs tend to suck at planning and forecasting the success (or not) of their business.

So, let’s see what we can learn from this…

• “It’s small business week and I sure” – now you guys know I iz a disaster when it comes to typos, but when you’re mass emailing a bazillion pitches to people who don’t want them, be sure to double-check. Bloggers are like resume screeners, dying for a reason to say no as fast as humanly possible so they can get on to the stuff they want to say yes to.
• “…you and everyone else at Awake At The Wheel” – First, I dropped the Awake @ The Wheel moniker from my blog more than a year ago. But I know that my contact information still has it in certain massive PR databases. Which is yet another sign that I’m only one of a bazillion people being gifted with this admittedly “pointless pitch.” Second, if you read me regularly, would you really say “everyone else?” Who exactly would be on that massive team?
• “sick of getting pointless pitches but I think you might like this one” – Really? REALLY? If you think I’m sick of getting pointless pitches, why would you own that and in the same sentence introduce me to one? Really?!
• “tend to suck” – I write in a very casual way with you guys. My tribe. My regulars. And I’m guessing, on occasion, I’ve even written the word “suck.” But I’m still old-school when it comes to being professional in a pitch. Maybe I’m just cranky, a lot of all-growned-up bloggers I know are the same. Once we’re friends, say whatever you want. But until you know me, and know how I prefer to be communicated with, keep it respectful and professional. Or else you end up sounding like a 12-year old gamer in a 22 year old PR intern’s ill-fitting suit.

Okay, email #2 – first few sentences:

I am currently following you on twitter @[redacted/witness protection]

I would like your assistance with something; I would like you to write a blog introducing me to your ‘’Tribe’’ and maybe a couple of tweets endorsing me.

I know that that is a strong paragraph to open this email with but here me out.

First line, okay, this person introduces relevance, it’s a person who follows me on twitter. I do a quick scan and am pretty sure said person has never interacted with me in any way on twitter. But, like I said, I’m old and I forget stuff, so who knows?

Second line – you know that bloggy thing you’ve worked for years to cultivate? That tribe you’ve shared so much value with and to whom your word is really important? Well, you need to feature my “I-don’t-care-about-your-tribe-beyond-my-ability-to-take-money-from-them-and-I-can-prove-it-cuz-I’ve-never-so-much-as-said-boo-in-a-comment-or-read-a-single-post-I-can-reference-in-my-email-to-let-you-know-I-have-any-real-clue-who-you-are” self on your blog, then tweet about me…like pronto, like. Do I really need to say more?

Third line – “here me out.” Typo. Plus, no. Do ya think I did?

Now, let’s contrast these first two with a third one that came in shortly after.

Here are the first few sentences:

Hi Jonathan,

I was reading your blog today and saw your offer from Blogworld East. I was just speaking with a girlfriend today about how we both wished we could go. (We’re both in [city name] and our bosses have been unsympathetic to our pleas!)

I thought it was great that you offer things like that to your readers. The thought crossed my mind, perhaps you and your readers would find value in a membership to [Company Name]? Our business model is based off a $129 per year fee. However, if you think it would benefit your readers,  we could create a custom landing page with your logo and a custom promo code that would let your readers in free to all of the [Company Name] events for one year. (I bolded this just in case you scanned the email and thought I was trying to sell you when you saw $129)

Relevant. Shows knowledge and involvement in my content and my tribe. Expresses gratitude for my interest in sharing special perks with my readers. Offers to create an opportunity where they do all the work to give my readers relevant value for no cost.

Did I do it? No. But, at least I was far more open to the conversation and the offer. And if it was more on-point, I very well may have.

Five rules for pitching bloggers on, well, anything…

1. Know the hell out of the pitchee. Understand what they like, don’t like and what they cover and stay relevant to that and only that.

2. Engage first. Interact with the pitchee in a way that adds value to their ecosystem first, frequently and long before you ever ask something of them. They should already know who you are and believe that you care before an ask is made. And don’t do it just because you want something from them, do it because you both care about the same things and you want more people in your life like that.

3. Make every ask a give. Create an experience that gives more than it takes.

4. Make it easy. Offer to do the work for them, make it as easy as saying yes.

5. Un-pitch. If you do rules 1 – 4 exceptionally well, you won’t have to pitch. You can just ask a colleague or friend who very often will have already made a standing offer to help you out if you ever need it.

Bonus rule – speelhceekx

These rules may be a bit different outside of social media. But, social media has now matured to a point where the potential to do it right has evolved into the expectation that you will do it right.

P.S. – Please understand, my intention is in no way to denigrate or flame the people who sent me these pitches. That’s why I don’t publish names/identities with posts like this. Not my style. My sole purpose is to use occasions like this as teaching moments, to help those trying to build a brand and strong relationships understand how to better approach the people whose help you’d like.

That’s it.

Huggies & butterflies…

People often ask where my ideas for books, blog posts, essays and keynotes come from.

Simple answer…life outside of writing books, blog posts, essays and giving talks.

I launch a company, product or experience, succeed, struggle, fail, recover…so I write about it.

I have a great customer experience at a restaurant, or a terrible one…so I write about it.

I watch my daughter grow up and wonder at what she’s thinking along the way…so I write about it.

I struggle to build a career while also honoring my desire to be present in the lives of the people and experiences I hold dear…so I write about it.

I try to grab the reigns of health, fitness and mindset, sometimes in triumph, other times defeat…so I write about it.

I have conversations with incredible people…so I write about it.

I paint, write music, travel, go on walkabout, wonder which way is up…so I write about it.

I blend that with the quirky lens through which I take in the world and out comes content, stories, ideas, discoveries and experience.

On the rare occasion I feel stumped for things to write about, it’s always because I’ve spent too much time writing and not enough time living beyond the pen.

It’s always a sign I need to put down the moleskine and step away from the screen.

Not in the name of contriving a content-worthy life, but in the name of living a life worth writing writing about.

And you can either be my guest and pay nothing or come for 20% off. Here’s the deal…

Until this year, Blogworld happened once a year in Vegas, but they’ve just added a new New York City event and moved the fall event to Los Angeles.

For all you authors and aspiring authors, it’s especially cool, because it’s being co-located with the largest publishing-industry conference, Book Expo America, and…wait for it…one full-access pass gets you into both shows.

That’s an insane amount of education, networking and fun for the price of one ticket.

But, before you spend a dime, the good folks at Blogworld have worked with me to arrange two very cool things for you guys:

1. A Complimentary Full-Access Pass – I’ve got one VIP pass that will get you in for the low, low price of, well, nothing! I’m going to give it away to the person who shares the most compelling, funny, horrifying, bizarre, dramatic, happy, sad, silly or downright chunkiest reason that they absolutely must go to Blogworld in the comments below.

But, you need make stuff up, plead your case, post your comment by midnight EDT on Wednesday, May 11th to qualify. As always, the pass be awarded based on my utterly non-scientific, thoroughly-biased, bribable, completely covert selection criteria. No purchase necessary, you can’t be my sister, yadda yadda yadda. I’ll announce the winner Thursday May 12th.

2. Get 20% off – Even if you don’t win, the cool kids at Blogworld Expo have given me an exclusive 20%-discount code to share with you. It’s – JFIELDS20.

So, be sure to enter it when you register here.

Oh, so what am I talking about at Blogworld East?

Here’s the description of my session:

Tapping Technology to Build a Digital Enterprise

Most authors just want to write, but in this rapidly changing publishing environment, that’s not enough. To stay in control of your career, authors must become enterprises. And social media, along with a variety of other online and mobile tools and platforms, is now making this easier and less complex than ever before. This presentation will explore how to build a digital empire around your writing pursuits that allows you the freedom to continue to do what you love and take control of your living and career path.

Now go, plead your case for the Comp pass in the comments below or just jump on in and commit now for 20% off.

He’s one of the most ubiquitous people on the internet, a speaker at conferences and events globally and prolific beyond measure. But, did you ever wonder what Brogan is really building these days? What’s working phenomenally well for him? And what’s not? Whether he’s happy? Who he’s trying to help? And how? And what his kids think about it?

If you’d tuned in to his world a few years back, you’d have said, “oh, he’s that social media guy.” But increasingly, Brogan’s been marching to the beat of a different drummer. No so much expanding what he’s about, but liberating, revealing and building around the “other” Chris Brogan. The one that’s about seeing lightbulbs go on in the minds of mom and pop shops and dollars go into their pockets and their kids’ college funds.

Recently, I sat down with Chris to talk about all of these things, with a special focus on his current company—Human Business Works—a collective of small business solutions that Chris is building as a multi-tentacled collaborative effort.

And, I asked Chris some hard questions, the ones above, and a lot more. As you watch, listen to or read his thoughts in the show transcript, pay particular attention to not only what he’s saying, but the very fact that he’s saying what so many others keep closeted. That willingness to come clean with both highs and lows, to be publicly human, is one of the things that endears so many people to Chris and makes him a teacher worth learning from.

Now, it’s time to bring you this weeks episode of Getting Real, featuring Chris Brogan:

———————-SHOW NOTES———————–

Human Business Works is Chris Brogan’s most recent endeavor. It’s focus is to provide, tools, support and strategies for small businesses, often home-based operations, in an effort to help them flourish, especially in challenging times. Right now, the focus is in three areas, Kitchen Table Talks (a community for small businesses to learn and share), 501 Mission Place (a resource for non-profit leaders), and Blog Topics (a weekly newsletter designed to help make it easier for small businesses to create valuable content).

—————UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT—————–

Jonathan Fields: Hello, people of earth. This is Jonathan Fields hanging out with Chris Brogan. Chris, say “Hello.”

Chris Brogan: Hello, Jonathan and people of earth.

Jonathan Fields: All right. So why are we here today? Why are we hanging out? Well, if you hang out in the blogosphere, you already know who Chris is. I don’t need to actually explain it to you. If you don’t hang out in the blogosphere — and a lot of my readers actually don’t, they’re sort of more small business people — you may not know Chris. So I want to introduce Chris and also share what he’s up to in the not sort of directly social media related world in the small business world because there’s some really cool new stuff today. So Chris, I would love you just take a second here and just sort of share who are you?

Chris Brogan: Sure. So I have been in business for a while. My background was in telecom. I was in landline telecom and then wireless telecom. And then for a long time I had been doing this online media stuff, this blogging and journaling and all this kind of stuff. And then somewhere around the end of ’06 I left telecom and started running conferences in the world of video and the impact of internet video on TV and film and entertainment, and this brings me up to now where I’ve been involved in starting a couple of marketing companies, one of them for really big businesses, Fortune 100s and sometimes 500s.

And along the way I really started getting interested in what small business needed and could use for help and how the things the small business could do would be a little more impactful because I was a small business. My company was three people big, and I was always going up against companies that were — their marketing department was three times the size of my company. So I found myself saying, “Wow! There’s a lot of leverage here. There’s a lot of neat stuff we could do. How do I educate and provide tools and smarts for people in small business world that would be useful to them?”

So I started another company, as if I had nothing else to do, called Human Business Works which — the goal was to help people build sustainable relationship by their businesses. And I’m probably not unlike yourself. I’m not into cutthroat small business. I’m not into simple transaction small business. I’m into the business of repeat sales and relationships and the idea that I’m here for more than your money but that I’m here for making you into a hero and sustaining your well-being.

Jonathan Fields: Right. So let’s deconstruct that a little bit because I really want to understand what Human Business Works is. But I want to come at it from a different angle, and I want to start with who it is that you’re trying to serve. So describe to me, who is this person who you’re reaching out to?

Chris Brogan: Sure. So we kind of have two and on one side it’s Janine. Janine would be this woman at home who has raised her kids, has decided to go back to the workplace, maybe is currently at a cubicle type job and has decided, “This isn’t really for me.” But she’s really good at catering and she’s decided she wants to do a catering business. She’s read E-Myth so she’s already been sufficiently terrified that the world is going to go poorly. And now she’s like, “Okay, I get it. I know it’s hard, but I don’t really know what to do next. And I would love to do it in sort of a modern way as opposed to what I’m getting out of my library, what I’m getting at at continuing ed courses that are being offered at my school. They are out there trying to teach Microsoft Office, and I’ve been told that I need a business on Facebook and whatever.”

So my job isn’t to just take what I know in marketing and social media and showing it in the small business. It’s to equip Janine with understanding of things like if she wants to work with a virtual assistant or not, what it’s like to work with virtual bookkeepers, for example, I use a virtual bookkeeping service. What does it mean to have presence all over the web for your sales outlet, and then how do you mix and match the local and the web stuff together? So Janine is one.

On the other side, I’m also working with some franchise organizations that have thousands of business owners that they’ve hired and they’re looking to equip them with some specific skills. For example, maybe specifically social media type stuff or specifically virtual collaboration tools and things like that. And so those are my two buyers basically are the single solo person who is really just trying to figure things out or somehow who’s had a small business going for a while and wants to take it up a level, and then on the other side maybe franchise owners who are looking to equip lots of people with useful training and information to kind of up their game.

Jonathan Fields: Right. So which is kind of interesting and it kind of evolves in this question of what are the big pain points for these people? I mean you shared some service, okay, this person is doing this but they’ve heard there are other ways to be doing it. They want to do something. And you and I both know that there are two sides to what you can do to build your own business. So for HBS you can try and delight people by giving them a better way to do things, but the better way to do it is really discover what are the big freaking pain points? Where are people really in need? So for these two people, for Janine and for the franchise person, what are they pain points that you’re reaching out to?

Chris Brogan: One of them for sure is how to understand what they know how to do in physical world into the online world. I’m just seeing that they’re not doing very well at converting their online prospects into sales because their website is like an old-fashioned billboard. And I’m finding that there are no conversational elements. There’s no kind of first sale then second sale. My concept of this is getting somebody to say yes to joining your email list is the first sale. That gives you the opportunity for the real transactional sale many times over versus people saying, “Just buy my thing right now.” Well, if right now isn’t the right time, then I’ve just lost you off my hook.

So I’m looking at those kinds of things as some of the main pain points. The other is people like Janine are just not sure where to advertise anymore. They receive calls from the local yellow pages and have been told that’s where to go, the local town newspaper, et cetera, and yet they don’t have even a basic website, they don’t have any information in Google Places, they’re not using the simplest of tools I think to get started. And so I’m really trying to help them with the pain of kind of rediscovering their web presence and not having to spend 5 to 10 grand a month with somebody who’s going to sell them an out of the box solution that doesn’t cost anything like that.

Jonathan Fields: Right. Which is kind of interesting because as you’re speaking I just took three quick notes and then remarkably all start with the letter C and it was conversion, confusion, and cost. And it seems like those are three things which are — I mean you and I both run a couple of small businesses. Those are big things that you don’t want to deal with confusion because it eats up your time, your energy and your money, your cost, your constantly concerned with your bottom line. And conversion, you’re always looking every single person walking through the door you’re trying to — and I love the way that you said that, that most people don’t realize. The first — the move onto your email list is the first sale if you want to call it that and then it’s the sale into a relationship which then turns into something bigger. So did that pretty accurately reflects the major pain points that you feel like you’re serving?

Chris Brogan: I think those are really good, Jonathan. What a great summary of them. And I would say that maybe if I had a fourth C, it might be content because a lot of people have been told that they need to create interesting stuff, they need to write interesting things, but they have no idea what that translates to. And so one of the businesses I rolled out for Human Business Works was called Blog Topics and it was simply for people who are blogging in whatever size of business or even for their personal blog for ideas and writing improvements and whatnot.

Jonathan Fields: Right. So let’s talk about that. That’s a great transition because then I want to move into how you’re solving the problems, and you just bought up one of them, Blog Topics. The Human Business Works is sort of this unusual — it feels like an umbrella organization for a bunch of individual solutions talking to individual people. So tell me more about what the existing solutions are and how they are maybe different than how — these two different people, Janine and the franchise people would normally find their solutions.

Chris Brogan: Sure. So the first two things we launched were educational forum type platforms. We launched one for non-profits called 501 Mission Place where we’re trying to help non-profits and charity organizations understand how better to use the tools of the web to do things like fundraise better, example. What we are also doing with that is showing them and giving them access to other executive directors. They can sort of share mind share and bringing in experts to maybe help them with sort of premium ideas of that nature.

The next one is Kitchen Table Companies which is a small business and entrepreneurial forum. Again, the idea being that come in, join, and learn, and we will just keep giving you information that’s useful at whatever point in the spectrum of small business you’re at. Again, we’re also going to start adding some intense sort of video content around educational opportunities like how to start a virtual assistant business, for example, that kind of a thing.

The Blog Topics is just an offering, an interesting education offering I’m giving right now, but that’s going to move into something where I’m offering a premium newsletter service that allows other people to create similar products for costs so that they can charge $2 an issue, $10 an issue, whatever they think they’re going to get for sending out information that they think is premium content and whatnot. So I started with a need of mine. I wanted to send out premium content that I could charge for and it evolved into the idea of creating a service that I thought other people might need. And because this all fits under the umbrella of tools and smarts for small business, that’s kind of how we keep doing it. And when I do something like this like make this email newsletter service, the idea is, “Hey, you possible small business owner, this is something that might augment and give you new revenue stream.”

Jonathan Fields: Right. And it’s kind of fascinating to me too because we both been involved in serving the small business for a long time, small business market. And one of the big challenges that I found is that a lot of the people who would most benefit from what you’re doing in particular are the people who are least likely to be searching for it online. So how do you work with that dynamic?

Chris Brogan: Not successfully, Jonathan. I will say I’m an utter failure right now at the converting offline people. So I’m trying some things. For example, the New England XPO is forthcoming and that’s a big offline physical conference event and I’m going to have two booths there. I have not had an exhibiting booth in years and years and years. I don’t — I mean in the days of squeezy balls I think was the last time I was at it. Now, it’s like win a free iPad or something.

So I’m going to hope to meet this plumbers and pipefitters, these people of the earth that are making stuff with their hands and whatnot and I really explain to them how that online to offline and back again world works for me and just offer whatever services I can. We’ll have some kind of show specials and all that. We’ll do all of the stuff that marketers do at booth events and plus I’m speaking and/or I will yet again have the ear of the people at the Boston Globe and some other places. So I’m just forever hoping that I can get that message to the right place because I’m horrendous at it yet getting the offline people to know I’m there.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And it’s a really huge challenge because you look at it — I mean and I’m sort of — have been exploring the same thing with what I do. And the other challenge I think with businesses is that they’re the most desperate, they’re the most in need of help. You’re somebody who can clearly help in many bazillion different ways, but they are also by far the most price-conscious. And every dollar out needs — they need to know that for every dollar that’s going out, they’re going to get a $1.05 and hopefully more back in. And especially when you’re sort of explaining the online world and it morphed and shaped to a lot of businesses they have trouble making that sort of progression in their minds.

I’m curious, have you come up with the same conversation? I’m sure you had many times over. And if so, what have you done to help turn the lights on? Are there major points where you just know you found that niche conversation and people say, “Wow! I never realized that”?

Chris Brogan: It’s a strange switch from really big companies to really small because you would think that really big companies are like, “Oh, we’ve got that money and it’s just lying on a floor somewhere. Let’s just get and shove one and get what you need right out.” But it’s not. I mean I had a conversation with a very large company that was very budget-conscious and I quoted them what I thought was a very small number for a project and they balked and I thought, “Wow! Clearly, it’s tough times for everybody.” So everyone is holding on to their dollars a little tighter.

I do try to show those return on investment kind of experiences especially for a small business because they do care so much about it. For example, in helping them build better websites and better web services, what I’d like to show them is that the small expense upfront of doing it on their own system, building a site that’s easily editable for them saves them a lot of money from having to pay for repeat visits from web developers, et cetera, and allows them a lot more manual control of it. So I try to show them that putting their hands into the work allows a little savings there.

The other thing I do a lot is talking about time savings and explaining how answering their question on the phone is so different than answering it on your site because the site can pick up when you’re sleeping, et cetera, et cetera. Google is indexing all that great information. I try to show them that there’s leverage points and that’s — you’ve interviewed Julien Smith before. Julien co-wrote Trust Agents with me. Leverage was the third big point we made which is, why answer something once when you could try to answer it a million times with one shot?

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And it’s really fascinating too because I think one of the huge pain points for small business owners is they feel like they don’t have a life. The fortunate ones are the ones who figure it out over a period of years and start to get their lives back right off. But in the early days almost everybody gets completely consumed by the business that’s part of the long trust is as much as we like to go and say, “Hey, life balance, you can just create it at any point.” But it’s really hard to do when the business is new. So I would think that being able to convincingly argue that we can actually give you leverage points where you can get a substantial chunk of your life back. You’re not going to be sitting on a beach sipping piña coladas. But things will be better, would be pretty compelling argument for people.

Chris Brogan: Well, absolutely. The other thing I’d like to say is that it’s great that you’ve picked this physical location and it’s great that you may or may not have some kind of mail order going, but this just extends distribution points, and really one of the leverage that we look for in business is distribution and how do we get into more storage or whatever. Well, the web makes that a secondary thing. You can get into plenty more stores on the web. And I guess I’d like to show that with a smartphone or a decent lap top you can take this, carry on a conversation to other places, and you could be doing it on the airport on the way to Boca Raton for your vacation.

My daughter who is just about nine years old is complaining. She says, “Dad, you know, a lot of times I see you looking over and playing with your cell phone and I really wish you were spending time with me.” And I said, “Well, sweetheart, I’m home a lot more often than a lot of dads. And frankly, when I kind of look down and answer this device, it means I don’t have to be at a desk anymore to do it so I apologize and I’ll be — why don’t I shut it off for the whole rest of the night. But just understand that, that means daddy can bring his desk right here while we’re playing and we can sort of split time, and so that I’m holding many more hours than your typical dad even for a guy who travels all the time.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, and which is — actually I love that you just said that because I need — I’m about to have — I’ve been trying to figure out how to have that same mode of conversation with my daughter who’s nine, and it’s a great way to sort of rephrase it and actually reframe it that way. So I love that. One of the things that you brought up when you’re describing the actual solutions was this idea of forums, and I know one of the big pain points for small business people also is the sense of isolation. They don’t have people to talk to. They don’t have people. And they’re always wondering, “Am I alone in this? Am I losing my mind? Am I doing things right or wrong? I’d love to bounce this off some way but I can’t pay a consultant.” It sounds like that’s part of what you’re creating in the solutions that you’re bringing out.

Chris Brogan: Absolutely. So Kitchen Table Companies is yet another way for us to make a forum for people to come and talk with peers as also with people who maybe have come a little further down the road than you. And I first had the idea when starting the Third Tribe Marketing with Brian Clark and Darren Rowse and I somewhat infamously got in trouble for writing a blog post about it because my point was you could pay $47 a month in this forum versus my day rate which is $22,000. Well, all anyone heard was Chris Brogan charges $22,000 bucks a day.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I remember that.

Chris Brogan: They didn’t even in any way look at like what I was saying and I was like — I was so proud of myself. I was like, “This is great. It’s 1/122 of the cost of whatever I said, but then I had arguments about how much I charge and how that’s crazy. I do charge $22,000 a day and I do it for an important reason. My days are very valuable to me and if you think — you need a day of my time then I’m going to charge what it’s worth for a day of my time. However, for $47 bucks you get an entire month of my time and you get a month of hundreds and hundreds of people who are small business professionals who are looking to connect.

So I think that’s an amazing pitch but it’s forever stunningly on deaf ears because they get stuck on the wrong part. But, Jonathan, like you said, so many people are just out there feeling like they’re by themselves. I mean yesterday, my COO was sitting here in my office with me yesterday and I just got hit with this feeling of, “Oh, my gosh! I’m doing this so wrong,” and I don’t know who to go to. So I mean to me I just go back into the forums and ask, “Has anyone ever had that realization that you’re spending way too much money and making way too little?” It’s the same for me.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And I mean I think it’s just invaluable part of what you’re doing and I think there’s also an interesting element to — because people always ask, “Well, there’s got to be a bunch of forums out there. I could just go to online for all sorts of different things.” So what’s the difference and what’s — and maybe it was Seth Godin when he started really talking about Tribes company years back said that a sense of exclusivity, that privacy actually changes the dynamic.

It changes the conversation. It changes the trust dynamic within — when it’s gated even if it’s — I mean honestly like the very solutions you brought forth whether it’s part of Human Business Works or they’re a tribe, to me as a business owner, the cost is ridiculously low. But the point being that it’s really — it’s a token. What you’re saying is I’m willing to put a tiny bit of money to get into behind a gated community where there are real conversations and there is respect and privacy and intelligence.

Chris Brogan: That’s it. I mean one of the reasons to charge is for people to contribute and to participate. One of them is to cover our server costs and all the other things that we’re doing. The other is that we go where the money and we go where we’re devoting our time. And so to ask for just a small amount of money out of several hundred people is affordable to me. First is getting on a plane flying somewhere charging some one group 22,000 bucks. You mean this is a way that I could spread it out a lot more.

And I say that as if Kitchen Table Companies is led by me. Joe Sorge is really the guts and heart behind it. He has funded many different restaurants. He’s been an entrepreneur one kind or another for over 20 years now. And Joe lives in Milwaukee and owns several restaurants and just recently merged into a deal where he acquired even more restaurants. And so he is in the startup phases of two new restaurants right now as he’s writing all this stuff, and so Joe makes the forum much worthwhile. And me showing up every now and again is just a little bit of sprinkle on the cake.

Jonathan Fields: So tell me, you mentioned one of the things that’s been a really big challenge for me that wasn’t working to a certain extent. So you’re trying all sorts of different things. What’s really working phenomenally with what you’re doing right now?

Chris Brogan: Oh, wow, that’s a great question. I would say there’s a few things. I mean Blog Topics is working better than I ever imagined. I was amazed that so many people wanted it and that so many people keep replying that they’re finding value in it. And I’m very humbled by this because people — like the response when I launched it was, “Oh, my gosh! He’s $10 a month for ideas on how to read blogs? What a jerk. I can’t believe he’s doing this.” And blog posts flew and angry tweets flew and more people complained and more people signed up and I’m just — I’m getting so close to 500 buyers right now and I’m thrilled. And let’s just do math here, 500 buyers at 10 bucks a month, that’s 5 grand a month for one weekly email where I pour my heart and my writing abilities into it and trying to help educate other people to write.

On my side I think it’s equitable. On the other side people are paying 10 bucks for 40 plus ideas a month. It seems like a match made in heaven. So that works well. What else is going well is we’ve started buying and building some software and we started coming up with some things that would be useful to people. We built a web — a simple website creation methodology that uses WordPress as kind of the engine of it but it has small business people in mind. And so we build a kit that helps with that. That will launch soon. The newsletter thing is going to work really well.

You catch me in an interesting time because the forums are interesting and they’re working well, but what I wanted to do is I wanted to have tools and smarts for small businesses. And so my tools have not come out to the public yet but I’m getting to play with them and I’m excited because I just think that it’s going to help with conversion and confusion, cost and content.

Jonathan Fields: Very cool. I like that. So let’s zoom the lens out a little bit now, and I know we just have a couple of minutes left. So I want to ask some bigger pictures of it. I know you’re a big fan of Donald Miller’s sort of whole approach of framing your life as a story. A big question for you, what story do you feel like you’re telling right now?

Chris Brogan: Wow! I am telling the story of someone who at least externally seems successful in all that he’s done with his business for the last couple of years and who has the eye and the attention of a bunch of people in at least one marketplace, the social media space. And I’m saying that it’s not good enough. I’m saying that working with really large companies wasn’t good enough for me and as much as I really love big companies, I will see one again on Monday afternoon. There’s not the same sense of satisfaction as helping the Janine that I mentioned earlier as this mom who is coming back to the workplace for an example, to find her own spark and to really — and really nurture that and make that grow.

So hopefully my story is the story of promoting other people, growing other people’s capabilities, and really equipping them with the tools to take on their destiny. I don’t need to be the hero anymore. I really just need to be the mentor that helps rise up a good lot of people.

Jonathan Fields: Right. I love that. And it kind of segues really well into the last thing I’ll throw at you which is that we’re both dads, we’re both entrepreneurs, we both work, and our kids see we’re around a lot and we both know that what you do has so much bigger impact than what you said just like when we were kids. In your mind, what are the big lessons that you’re hoping you’re passing down to your kids in your actions as this?

Chris Brogan: You know, that’s a huge thing for me because neither my wife nor I were very traditional students. She was a lot better student according to the paper and I was a lot more precocious. So I really had to teach my daughter from an early age. I mean she learned sooner than me that she kind of had more control than you’re supposed to and I think that — I’ve had a teacher that were clever — where she has to kind of throttle her clever so that she can actually learn the lesson and basically learn classical before you play jazz. And I would say that — I mean neither of my kids is going to have a traditional work experience. I have no doubt at this. My daughter runs the risk of it but I think she’s too precocious and impetuous. And I think my son, he’s got that sort of crazy Einstein mind. He’s ultra smart but forgets to wear his pants. So neither one is destined to be a cubicle farmer as near as I can tell.

Jonathan Fields: God! I love that. And which kind of like just circles me back to — okay, last question for real here. When I start talking about parents and dads and stuff like that I confer but — which brings curiosity to me because it’s kind of a question that I ask on a pretty daily basis which is what takes your breath away these days?

Chris Brogan: Wow! Besides a good punch to the belly which nearly nine-year-old daughters always wanted to give, I would say that honestly it’s just that feeling of somebody saying, “I really didn’t believe that I could do this and I did it.” And I don’t know. I could never grow tired of having people tell me that story. Whether or not it had anything to do with me I’m forever thrilled that they’ve told me that story and shared it with me. So I’m always thrilled when somebody says that they’ve accomplished something they just didn’t think was going to happen to t hem.

Jonathan Fields: That — love that. All right. This has been — I mean I love learning about what you’re up to. I also love — for me it’s been really helpful because I have a deeper understanding of what Human Business Works is right now and where I think it’s going. I’m sure people want to know more. How can people find you or Human Business Works throughout the –

Chris Brogan: My designer, Josh Fisher, did an amazing job of reskinning HumanBusinessWorks.com, so come by and look at its orange beauty and see if there’s something good there.

Jonathan Fields: Cool. Awesome. Thanks so much, Chris. I appreciate it.

Chris Brogan: Jonathan, my pleasure. Thank you.

——————–END TRANSCRIPT——————-

Why?

Because the people wanted to be able to express a a strong opinion or position as a way to create a deeper, more engaged conversation and stay authentic, but were concerned about how their comments would be taken “in the wild.” You know, that place where context is a fleeting fantasy and soundbites rule over understanding and accuracy.

I’ve actually had a similar experience in a number of other settings. In an odd way, it seems channels known as the protectors of transparency, authenticity and truth have created a dynamic where people are increasingly scared to be transparent and speak the truth, because of the risk of being taken “the wrong way by the wrong people.”

Always on, all the time doesn’t always work when your goal is the cultivate an environment where participants in a conversation feel safe enough to get real.

So what do you think? Is twitter the ultimate transparency catalyst or is it a truth killer?

Or something in between?

I’ve danced around the issue in the past. But a recent brilliant post entitled—The Short Sweet Guide to Being Fucking Awesome—by my friend Julien Smith, the co-author of New York Times bestselling Trust Agents, made me revisit it and explore it on a deeper level.

It’s about language, transparency, attention and connection. More specifically, it’s about the word…breath in, breath out…fuck. And a variety of other words that freak people out.

It’s about the intentional mismatch we create between our online personas and who we really are. About how real we’re willing to get in the digital word, in the consulting world, in the speaking world and any other world where our psychic red markers rise up and say, “should you really be going there?”

It’s about one of the reasons this is my favorite work of art from GapingVoid.com’s Hugh MacLeod, but it’s not hanging on my office wall. It’s about why we censor and what it does both to us and to our ability to feel fully expressed, attract more attention, build business and connect on a different level…or not.

So, I figured who better to hash this out with than Julien, the guy who got the conversation re-kickstarted in my head.

So, without further ado, here’s this week’s Getting Real

web show—Featuring Julien Smith

Listen to or download the audio mp3/podcast version

Click here to jump to the comments…

————————————————————————

Check out Julien Smith’s and Chris Brogan’s New York Times bestselling book, Trust Agents, for a deeper understanding of what’s driving next-gen interactions and business and how to better tap social technology to engage, build trust and become the go-to person or company in your market.

But don’t stop there, be sure to also check out Julien’s blog for up to minute dispatches from that uber-cool place also known as Julien’s brain.

———————SHOW TRANSCRIPT———————

Jonathan Fields: Hey guys, Jonathan Fields here and I’m presently hanging out with Julien Smith on the other end of my Skype line here. Where you have been, you are over at Canada, right?

Julien Smith: Yeah. Montreal.

Jonathan Fields: Very nice. Okay. So, why is it snowing in New York City right now? Are you getting snow there?

Julien Smith: Yeah. Well, it’s not today. We got it a couple of nights ago, but we were really sure that spring was coming.

Jonathan Fellds: Yeah.

Julien Smith: And then…

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. And a buddy of mine told me it was just 70 degrees and sunny in Colorado so not too happy.

Julien Smith: Yeah. [Laughs] Exactly.

Jonathan Fields: We paid more taxes; we’re supposed to get more sun, what’s up with that? All right. So why we’re hanging out today? So for those of you that have been living under a rock, Julien is a very cool dude, insanely bright, and writes some really provocative, insanely… You know, it’s funny I’ve been rallying against people using different words that are so watered on the blog, but when they actually said that you’re transparent and authentic, you’re one of the few guys who actually, it’s not a bullshit word when I say that.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: It’s like you really are. So a couple of weeks ago, you dropped this post that was titled, “A Short Sweet Guide to Being Fucking Awesome.”

Julien Smith: Right. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: And the post blew me away, absolutely. I mean I love everything you write, but this post I was like this is just spot on, man. There’s like a zillion comments, it got passed around all over the place and then it was funny because I went to share that post.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: And I opened up my Twitter. Like, I’m going to paste it in there and I’m like, do I hit the button or not ’cause it’s got the F bomb in the middle of the title. And I’m like I love the post, I love the sentiment, I love what you write. It’s like dead on, but is this — how does my — how do my tribe, how are my different tribes going to respond to this.

Julien Smith: Right.

Jonathan Fields: And they were hanging out. We caught up at South by Southwest and having this conversation about like where is that line there. So, I want to circle back and sort of like — and talk that through but… And you know like looking back through that and I was just getting back through some of your recent posts also and you use the language very liberally. I mean you just like –

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: So, you know, the big open question is, do you sensor?

Julien Smith: I mean I still have an internal sensor, definitely. I know where the line is. I don’t know if I told you this story, but a friend of mine met Hans Rosling who does these TED Talks with all the bubbles and talking about graphics and stuff like that. And he said, I — Hans Rosling said, “On my TED Talk here’s what happens. I swear a little bit, traffic increases, I swear a little bit traffic increases, I swear a little bit” and then he says, “and then there’s a drop off. I swear too much and everything drops and everybody hates me.” And he goes, “I know where that line is and I’m actually figuring out where that line is.” So it is a conscious use of it and there is a theory behind it. It’s not just reckless, but it came out of a real — like that’s really how I speak. So –

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: I also do a lot of radio so I don’t have to speak that way. But to myself and to friends, I speak that way. So it’s just sort of a conscious increase of the use to see as an experiment what would happen.

Jonathan Fields: Right. So it’s kind of fascinating, right? Because I mean I speak very differently than I write on the blog. I mean I write kind of –

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: — conscious on the blog, but there are many times where I would be, you know, like using all sorts of language in real life with close friends and people like that that really I pull back on the blog. And it’s funny because my concern is always, you know, if I was starting over as a blogger right now, I would probably do it differently. I would probably just a lot more open. I would probably –

Julien Smith: Right.

Jonathan Fields: — write the way that you write because that’s largely how I speak when I’m just being who I am.

Julien Smith: Correct.

Jonathan Fields: Like I wonder if I’m… You know, the question for me is am I creating a false impression of who I am and what I’m really about by censoring that way.

Julien Smith: I don’t think so. I have to tell you like I’ve done — like I said, I’ve been on traditional radio and I’ve been on — I’ve created content for a long time where my audio content was that way because obviously, I was speaking so there was no way to censor it. You know, I was just like it was a very personal podcast at the time so I just spoke that way. But as time goes on and you become sort of more comfortable with the way that things are online, they know that you’re going to swear in person. I don’t think it’s hypocritical to write that way. Everybody writes that way and everybody speaks and swears. So it’s totally fine, but the way that I see it is it is a lesson in authenticity. There are very few censors that we have left, but everybody knows that that particular censor exists. So when they see people break through it, they go, “He must be telling the truth.” And so I actually gain from — in my opinion, I gain from it. I’m sure I’ve lost — I’m sure people –

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: — think it’s stupid. I’m okay with that.

Jonathan Fields: So that’s kind of — and what you’re saying is there’s a reason that you do it. Your madness that’s part of what’s behind it then.

Julien Smith: It is like — like, you know, for years like we would — before [0:04:54] [Indiscernible] agents came out; you know you publish your first book and you’re freaking out. You’re like this is will stand for me for two years or more. Who knows what –

[0:05:02]

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: — will happen afterward. So you’re really trying to make –

Jonathan Fields: Or two days depending on…

Julien Smith: Yeah. You know.

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs]

Julien Smith: So I did a lot of research, studied a lot about behavior and how people think about things. And I finally came to grips with sort of a conclusion, which is the same way that everybody is heading towards the internet versus let’s say traditional publishing and they’re heading towards let’s say podcasting instead of traditional radio, they’re also building towards more and more closeness. Like the ability to share things, ability to post drunken pictures on Facebook and it’s less and less of a big deal. So we’re increasingly casual and the result of that is that we are increasingly okay with swearing, some of us more, some of us less.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: So I just decided — I looked at the path, I saw the end of the path and where that door is and I just decided to walk through that door today.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: — five years from now.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s kind of interesting for me because it’s something that I’m dealing with on a pretty regular basis as I blog and also as I… We were talking a little bit before we got on the air here about, you know, one of the things that I’m looking to do is I’m transitioning out of the consulting side of my business and I’m putting a big effort into moving into speaking. So as I think about that, you know, as I think about how I want to build my presence, my reputation, my brand in that world, it’s like I’m revisiting this whole thing all over again.

I remember Gary V like a year or two ago, maybe two years ago, you know, he put — there was like a blog post. I remember he put up somewhere. He’s like, “Yes, I actually can give a talk without cursing.”

Julien Smith: Absolutely.

Jonathan Fields: And because — but he said it like he would have to push back with people who were like booking him and saying, I’m actually physically capable of not just like dropping F bombs all over the place. I don’t have to do that. I do it because I feel comfortable and it’s the right audience for it, and, you know, it’s a way for me to connect with them.

Julien Smith: That’s right. So the counter point to that it’s really interesting because there’s not a lot of people out there that do that. Gary V is one of them, I’m one of them, and there’s a few more but not very many. And it’s really interesting because it becomes the thing.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: You just — every conversation becomes about, oh, this guy swears during the talks or this guys swears.

Jonathan Fields: Yes.

Julien Smith: And actually I’ve totally gotten used to that and so I really — I don’t know, maybe it’s like I’ve developed thinking about it as a strategy now. But you discover when you begin to use it, people are like, “Oh my god, he’s doing it. We’re seeing the real him.” And so, you know, we haven’t sworn once during this conversation. Maybe at one point, we will, I don’t know. But the –

Jonathan Fields: We can set it out –

Julien Smith: Gary knows. Gary knows what he’s doing.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: And once — So it is a strategy like another. You know, like top ten lists sort of strategy on your blog.

Jonathan Fields:          Yeah.

Julien Smith: You post the top ten list and then that will become overused. Okay, well now it’s a top eleven list instead so it’s not a top ten. So it’s a development of strategy one after another after another.

So to answer your consulting point, which is very interesting to me. So as I told you before on the call that I just came back from a meeting. And so this is the guy’s list. It says, meeting Julien Smith on top, meeting Julien Smith and he just got a list of things. And so he says, our interest in your help is bring a new and interesting angle to the story, your transparency and honesty and then the final one says, your notoriety. It actually says that as an advantage because — I don’t even know why. Like maybe that it’s — Maybe it’s that they know that I’ll tell them the truth.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: That I won’t lie to them and say well your whole content is bullshit, which I don’t think that but the point is I could. If I thought that, I would genuinely say so. So I’ll be like, do you want to talk?

Jonathan Fields: Yes.

Julien Smith: And that’s what Gary V says, same thing. He is the most popular example of being able to do that. I think it will happen on television, I think it will happen in radio, I think it will happen everywhere.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. Well –

Julien Smith: It will become totally normal.

Jonathan Fields: No. I mean I’m old enough to remember like in the early days when “NYPD Blue” came on the air and for the first time, they showed like a guy’s, you know, naked buttocks. And it was like this –

Julien Smith: Yeah. And –

Jonathan Fields: — crazy ass like firestorm and, you know, people are going nuts and they want to shut down the station. And now it’s like — You know, like it’s the stupidest thing, but it is an interesting progression, right. But it’s interesting what you said about how — You know, like it creates this impression that because you’re willing to cross that line that you will actually be honest and forthcoming in a way that probably a lot of other people will just, you know, meet with somebody and blow smoke up their ass because they want their money. But maybe they’ll look at you and say that’s not Julien. It’s not — You know, –

Julien Smith: Right.

Jonathan Fields: He’s a guy who just goes out there and says what he needs to say and says what’s on his mind and he’s really freaking smart. So, you know, and like and I want that.

[0:10:00]

Julien Smith: So do you want to see the result of this? ‘Cause the result of this is GQ magazine emails me and says that they want my content. And Cosmopolitan magazine emails me and says that they want my content. And that’s from a — You know, it’s funny like ’cause on C.C. Chapman who maybe some people who are listening to this know published a book called, “The Content Rules” or “Content Rules.”

Jonathan Fields: Yes, right.

Julien Smith: And I laughed at him ’cause I said — You know, I was like all social media douchebags are now rephrasing themselves and becoming content strategists.

Jonathan Fields:          Right, right, right.

Julien Smith: And so and it’s true. It’s the next thing. It’s like –

Jonathan Fields: It’s the evolution.

Julien Smith: — everybody’s finally… That it’s not just every day we have to be on Twitter but we have on Twitter and provide good content.

Jonathan Fields: Right. Well, I’m fairly convinced that’s why nobody carries business card at Sotheby. People are like, “Oh, it’s just not cool anymore.” I’m like, “No actually, like you’re changing what you call yourself so quickly –”

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: That nobody actually –

Julien Smith: That’s totally true.

Jonathan Fields: — wants to spend money on cards. ‘Cause you get them and use them for more than like six minutes.

Julien Smith: So I never thought about that, but it makes a lot of sense. ‘Cause then you never define yourself as anything.

Jonathan Fields: Right, exactly.

Julien Smith: Yeah. You know, like, oh, I have that old card that says –

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs]

Julien Smith: What am I going to say? So… God, what were we talking about?

Jonathan Fields: So –

Julien Smith: Oh, yeah. So the point is that content that pushes the envelope gets seen and spread disproportionately lots.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: So it doesn’t matter if it pushes the envelope even 1% or 5%, you never want to push the envelope 100%. And you’ll notice that there’s very few things — I will never target an individual and I’ll never target a group. I mean I target social media people occasionally, but I’m in that industry so maybe that’s okay. I don’t know. But there’s a reason for that. First of all, the strategy does not target and go and say, you’re an asshole, you’re an asshole. It says in fact it usually calls upon the individual reading and says, you have a problem and so they self-identify with it.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: I never tell them you’re an idiot. Instead, I say, if you are doing this then you should be doing this. Or if you’re — You know, the thing about the Cult of Awesome, it asks them to self-identify whether they’re awesome or not.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: And whether they should be awesome or whether or not they’re… You know, the point is, it doesn’t insult anyone.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. But the thing is also you do it in a way where it’s — and you could tell me whether this is an accurate perception or not — where it feels organic. It feels like this is just like Julien, like this is who you are, it comes pretty naturally. You just write.

Julien Smith: Uh-hum.

Jonathan Fields: You know, and — But that’s an art form. I mean it’s not easy to do. There aren’t a lot of people that could step out and sort of I think do it. And I think –

Julien Smith: But that’s — John, that’s crazy that you’re saying that because if it is the person that you are, then why is it –

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. No–

Julien Smith: — so hard to be that person?

Jonathan Fields: No. You know what I think it is? What I was trying to say very inarticulately is that you bring so much extraordinary value to sort of the language that you use and the way you frame it and I think a lot of people have a lot trouble finding that balance.

Julien Smith: Maybe.

Jonathan Fields: And you know maybe they just don’t have enough to say so they’re using, you know, just like dropping curses left and right because they’re just doing it for shock factor. I think — you know,

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: Things get spread around a lot more. You know, there’s — I wrote a couple of years ago for Brian over on Copyblogger blog a post called Trainwreck blooging. And it was all about how much people who were just like, you know, had this crazy, messed up disaster of lives and people loved reading. And they’re usually transparent about their lives.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: And, you know, it was the content and the fact that they were actually out there and the fact that people — You know, like it made people feel good about the fact that their lives are really messed up, but not that messed up.

Julien Smith: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs]

Julien Smith: Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs] But, you know, this is — I think using, you know, like swearing in your content is an art form. You know?

Julien Smith: Sure.

Jonathan Fields: I think doing it, you know. So what I was trying to say is you do it in a way which is really compelling also, which is so well bundled with the value on like really provocative thought leadership that it’s really easy to buy into it. So my guess is there a whole bunch of people where if they were in a conversation and somebody else was standing and like dropping the equivalent, you know, like ratio of –

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: — you know, like F bombs and stuff like that in the conversation –

Julien Smith: Right.

Jonathan Fields: — they would be horrified. They’d be like, “Screw this, I’m out of here. This person is like vulgar and disgusting.” But then they’ll turn around and read your stuff and they’ll be like freaking genius.

Julien Smith: This guy is amazing.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: So, of course, you’re right. But internally the process, the internal conversation that occurs when you’re creating that content — I mean you create it with yours too. Like you have those internal barriers and you know where they are.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: They’re just different from where mine are. Right?

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: But you’ve still created them. So, I remember the first time, you know, James Chartrand from –

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, yeah, right.

Julien Smith: — Copyblogger. Have you met this person?

Jonathan Fields: Uh-hum. Yes.

Julien Smith: You have? Okay.

Jonathan Fields: Uh-huh.

[0:15:00]

Julien Smith: So this — any window will become clearer if you do envision what’s on the other end.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith:               So we got together and we chatted one time, you know. So one time about a week after that, it was in November or December and I was having this crazy week with contents where I put out a post called “The Quick 12-Step Guide to Quitting That Job You Fucking Hate.”

Jonathan Fields: [Chuckles]

Julien Smith: But with the — the sort of gibberish as the title.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, yeah, right.

Julien Smith: You know, when you shift and like all the numbers. So, I remember I published it. I was like it just came out one morning. I was sitting in this exact place where I work when I wake up, and I was like this is going to be really interesting to see how it flies. And immediately, something like 250 Facebook likes, which is disproportionate–

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: — for how much ’cause they look at it and it’s actually really interesting. If you put a Facebook or a Twitter button right next to the word “fucking” people just they’re like, “oh my god!”

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs]

Julien Smith: Excited with –

Jonathan Fields: You know, I’m going to have to test that though. [Laughs]

Julien Smith: I recommend it, you know. So I’m giving away all my secrets here.

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs]

Julien Smith: So when you put it in the title, like something immediately happened. Because people see it on Facebook or they see it on Twitter and they go, “Oh my god,” you know. You should see the number of Facebook and Twitter likes that’s on that post now, it’s sitting around 3000. Yeah.

So my point is that I remember breaking through that barrier and I was talking with James and I have a post… I’m not going to say the title of the post, which came a few after that. You can look for it in November or December. It’s easily the most offensively title post I’ve ever written. And I called James and I said, “You know, you should — I’m going to publish this post and it is this and it is that” and I was having this crazy week with content where I was testing and seeing what would happen if I did this and if did parodies and all these things. I was like, I’m having the most unbelievable traffic week, People are coming out of the woodwork and saying that they love me. I was like, this is really strange and I realized that all I was doing was being who I authentically actually am. So this old version of myself who existed in podcasting and who existed in all of these places was simply coming back. It wasn’t like a fake me or anything like that. And I –

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: And so James said, “Oh my god, you’re not actually going to post that, are you?” And now we’re talking about it so much that people are going to be like… And they’ll go check it and it will go viral again ’cause that’s what happens. Because James says, “Oh it’s going to go viral, I know it. It’s going to go viral” and then sure enough, I pressed post and it’s like… It becomes this explosion and this is a really offensive post with an offensive title and people were discussing it. Some people were offended.

So the point of that internal wall and passing that internal wall is difficult no matter where that wall is. No matter if it’s saying fucking in the title or no matter if it’s just going, you know, I’m going to talk about religion in this post and I know some people would disagree with that or something.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: Everybody has that thing. But the point is that as soon as you pass that, it’s only then that that content becomes disproportionately spread.

Jonathan Fields: Right. Now –

Julien Smith: So –

Jonathan Fields: And it’s interesting because I’m at that point right now where I sort of like in my personal brand and my content and stuff like that, like I have to make a decision. You know, I have to make a decision whether I want to go there.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: Because also it would be so different from the brand that I’ve built for the last three years.

Julien Smith: That’s right.

Jonathan Fields: So then I know. There are going to be a chunk of people that have been just sort of bouncing around with me for a while there, they’re like, hmm, this isn’t what I signed up for. But then, you know, like the flipside is then I get to be real then I also get to be — or more real. It’s not like you’ve been false –

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: — but I just haven’t been… You know, I haven’t let as much of me show.

Julien Smith: Right. But actually, you have parts of you that I would never show. Like you’re like this happened with my family or with my biz and that and that. And I’m like, there’s no way that I’m — you know,

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: So we get different levels of comments.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith:               I get comments like, “you’re a big wuss, stop talking about, you know, flowers and puppy dogs” or something. And I would get the opposite where people just there’s like this backlash of how dare you talk to me this way. But we’re just speaking to a different audience that have different internal values.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: But, you know, your people might very well swear like –

Jonathan Fields: Right. And –

Julien Smith: — it’s not–

Jonathan Fields: That’s the thing. It’s like I mean I’m making this big assumption that, you know, because — And also I have developed this tremendous comment community. Like bloggers left and right are shutting off their comments because they’re like, “Oh, they’re people who are just trying to scam like link juice. They’re trying to like you know just…”

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: Whatever it is. And I’m like, you know, what actually so many times the comment section of my blog just like completely dusts the value of the post itself.

Julien Smith: Oh, I know. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: And I’m like, how can I turn that off. I’ve learned so much from them, but also I’ve curated that and sort of cultivated that sort of comment community that is very much in line with the brand that I’ve laid out on the blog.

[0:20:02]

So I wonder how many of those people are holding back who they really are in the comments because they see me sort of setting a certain tone on the blog. I’m like how would that whole community and ethic change, you know, if I just opened up and started showing like ranting a little bit more and being a little bit –

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: — using the language that I use every day with my friends. So I think it is worth testing at least for me and just kind of see –

Julien Smith: Definitely.

Jonathan Fields: — how I feel about it. You know, it’s like I have to push that boundary personally.

Julien Smith: You feel like you — It’s like because it is… I just had a realization. I posted about it the other day. Of course, everyone ignores it. That all conversation is simply highly targeted contents. So the reason Gary V is successful is because he’s creating a tiny bit of content for one person, for example Jonathan Fields, which takes about 15 seconds to type into Twitter.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: And so Jonathan Fields receives it and he goes this is content meant directly for me.

Jonathan Fields: Uh-hum.

Julien Smith: So of course you eat it up. Right?

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: So the developments of all kinds of content including conversation becomes about targeting either somebody in an extremely effective targeted way or targeting as many people as possible within a given mindset.

Jonathan Fields: Uh-hum.

Julien Smith: And so I know that I speak to a field of people, which is very vast. You know, like there’s — A huge number of people it’s like the personal development… It just offends even to use those words. But you have no choice but to speak to a really tough audience, a really jilted and sort of jaded audience that has heard this and has heard that and this is nothing new and that’s nothing new using something different.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: So whatever blogger you are, you have to either be more targeted or you have to become more memorable in a different way.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: So it’s a really challenging thing.

Jonathan Fields: Yes.

Julien Smith: You know.

Jonathan Fields: And what’s interesting to me is too and this is… You know, I owned a yoga center for seven years and I taught yoga. So I was like sitting and walking around with bare feet teaching yoga and talking about all sorts of spiritual things. And it wasn’t unusual for me to be like sitting there in a packed room of students and we’re like 45 minutes into a 90-minute class.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: And I’ll be like — You know, and I’ll just be like get a fucking life people.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: And people are like… And half the people start cracking up and four people –

Julien Smith: You felt it just now, didn’t you?

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: You felt the wall literally as you were doing it.

Jonathan Fields: I did.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: It’s like bam.

Julien Smith: Uh-huh.

Jonathan Fields: But you know –

Julien Smith: So but –

Jonathan Fields: And it’s funny because like that was who I was and you know, I had a big following in that class. Because I was the dude who was just like out there being real in a very cruel world. And it’s funny that I hadn’t really been willing to go all the way there in my online persona.

Julien Smith: You just went there by the way.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah, I know.

Julien Smith: And if this is your content — I mean –

Jonathan Fields: I know.

Julien Smith: But your –

Jonathan Fields: And as soon as this video comes out, they’re like that’s it.

Julien Smith: Like…

Jonathan Fields: Oh my god…

Julien Smith: You know what might actually happen, Jonathan? Nothing.

Jonathan Fields: Or — Yeah.

Julien Smith: Not a fucking thing will happen.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: And then when that happens, you’ll be like, “Oh, I see, so that’s all it is.” And so all you get is this — I mean you can either do it like I said five years from now whatever that barrier is I don’t even care if it’s swearing. For me it’s swearing. People say I can’t swear it’s unprofessional, all this stuff. I’m like fine. But there is a line and you need to push past that line and that’s the only point at which people start to think that you’re interesting and different. Aaron Wall –

Jonathan Fields: Yes.

Julien Smith: — super famous search marketer. I was in search marketing for a while, said you need a strong editorial voice inside of your space. And so it doesn’t matter how boring your industry is. I don’t care of its blend tech. It’s a strong editorial voice.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: You really find out and you push the envelope whatever it is and that’s why people love content that’s boring.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: ‘Cause you can go through the post and be like, it’s really interesting lots of information but so what, people ignore it.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. I think the voice matters so much. All right. That’s very cool. Okay. So one last really just super — Like a very practical question to end this on actually ’cause we’ve been going at this pretty long here.

Julien Smith: Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: So just pure straight up.  One of the concerns that a lot of bloggers have and content creators have is this going to get through the spam filters. You know, like is this going to kill my traffic because nobody is going to be able to read it anywhere.

Julien Smith: Uh-huh.

Jonathan Fields: Have you sort of explored that or had issues with that?

Julien Smith: Well, I mean it’s — You know what to tell you the truth, I haven’t really thought about it. But it’s — I think the majority of the traffic if I look at it now comes from email or RSS or Twitter. which are generally like the pretty savvy people –

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: — that have sophisticated spam filters and not the crappy, I don’t know, Live.com ones or whatever they are, you know?

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: I don’t — I see a significant increase in traffic and again like I’m not telling people to swear.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. Right.

Julien Smith: This is just — I decided a long time ago that I was going to have a really personal online voice and I have — I’m not beholden to anyone. I don’t have consulting fees. I do — I mean, you know, I do get paid by these things. But if all those things go away I’m not all of a sudden like, oh no, I have no marketable skills. Like it just turns out that the more that you speak to your audience in a general way… You know, what I really figured out is this. Is the more the content sounds like you getting drunk on a Friday night –

[0:25:26]

Jonathan Fields: [Laughs]

Julien Smith: — with a bunch of your friends and it’s 4 o’clock in the morning and someone is slamming the piano and another guy is rolling around the ground for no reason and then somebody said something and they say something and everybody cracks up and they’re like ha-ha-ha, that’s your content.

Jonathan Fields: Hmm, god that’s pretty funny.

Julien Smith: That’s your content right there and nobody is willing to go there. They think that they can only go there with two or three people, wrong. The whole internet wants this.

Jonathan Fields: Right.

Julien Smith: That’s why — Again, Gary V, he noticed.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah.

Julien Smith: They want to hear the real shit.

Jonathan Fields: Yeah. Totally. And I think that’s a good place to end it on also; they want to hear the real shit.

Julien Smith: Yeah. And so that’s it.

Jonathan Fields: Dude, where can — Most of the internet already knows who you are and where to find you, but for the people who don’t, where can people find you?

Julien Smith: I have a blog at inoveryourhead.net. I’m @julien on Twitter and… I don’t know. I mean you can find me anywhere, email me, Google me, whatever it is you want.

Jonathan Fields: Awesome, man. Very cool.

Julien Smith: I had a good time.

Jonathan Fields: Yes, thank you. This is awesome. Take care.

Julien Smith: See you later.

———————END INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT———————

So. What do YOU think???

How much of your real-life-with-friends persona do you share online?

And why?

[FTC Disclosure - You should always assume that pretty much every link on this blog is an affiliate link and that if you click it, find something you like and buy it, I'm gonna make some serious money. Now, understand this, I'm not talking chump change, I'm talking huge windfall in commissions, bling up the wazoo and all sorts of other free stuff. I may even be given a mansion and a yacht, though honestly I'd settle most of the time for some organic dark chocolate and clean socks. Oh, and if I mention a book or some other product, just assume I got a review copy of it gratis and that me getting it has completely biased everything I say. Because, books and other stuff are like a drug to me, put one them my hand and you own me. Ethics be damned! K, you've been warned. Huggies and butterflies. ]

Photo of Julien Smith By Frédéric de Villamil

There’s a great divide about this in the blogosphere. Some folks believe you should never restrict the conversation. Others believe the “Your comment is awaiting moderation” message is such a turn-off that it kills the conversation.

I’ve found the exact opposite to be true. Here’s why…

When I publish a post, it’s often written in a way that’s intended to be a conversation starter. You are free to disagree with me or anyone else in our community all you like, we’ve had some amazing conversations around strong positions.

BUT I don’t tolerate speech that is overtly mean, hate-based, non-constructive or purely commercial.

My house, my rules.

I moderate to keep that overriding ethos intact. And I want people to know that. I want anyone visiting to know that you can take a strong position, but that you cannot attack or spew hatred. And I want others to know that this blog is a place where you can get real, you can ask uncomfortable questions or express opinions or ideas that might make you feel a bit nervous without being blasted.

I moderate because it’s important for you to know that this blog is a safe place to be.

And, to me, the value of that so far outweighs the discomfort you might feel awaiting moderation when you post your first comment.

FYI – I don’t put every comment in moderation. I monitor conversations, but comments only get cued for approval the very first time you comment. After that, you go live in real-time, but I’m still watching. And if something offensive slips through the cracks, I’ll take it down.

I like to think this policy is one of the many reasons the comment section here has become such a valued place of ideation and conversation, while so many other blogs are shutting their comments down because they’re filled with nastiness and spam.

Curious what you think…

If you feel like grabbing copies, just click on the books…

[FTC Diclosure: Yup, those suckers are affiliate links, if you buy either book using them, you'll not only have my, Guy and Gary's eternal devotion, but I just might make enough to get that new diamond encrusted bagel with cream cheese I've been eyeing]